Why has O'Brien never told this story before? Why does he decide to do so now?
Describe Elroy and analyze his influence on O'Brien and his ultimate decision. How does O'Brien reach his decision about whether or not to go to war? What role does shame/embarrassment/masculinity play in this decision?
What were your thoughts while reading this section? As always, feel free to respond to the above prompts or add your own ideas, questions, and interpretations. You may also respond to your classmates' posts, so we can have some interesting exchanges and debates.
O’Brien calls himself a coward for going to war at the end of “On the Rainy River,” but it wasn’t his actions that showed cowardice. It was his reasons for those actions. He was afraid of the shame that would follow him and how people would label and talk about him if he ran away to Canada instead of going to the war as he was supposed to. I disagree though. I don’t think he should brand himself a coward for going to war. It’s true he ran from fear of ridicule, but he didn’t run someplace safe. He ran to a war he also feared. That fear of shame stayed with him throughout the years, preventing him from telling his story until he realized telling it was the only way to put it behind him.
ReplyDeleteI believe Elroy influenced O’Brien’s decision simply by trying not to. He gave him every opening to run without a hint of judgment. Sometimes you need someone to tell you it’s okay to realize that it’s not. O’Brien knew that not everyone would be as understanding as Elroy and he couldn’t face the embarrassment of everybody else’s judgment. That embarrassment helped him make his final decision to go to the war.
I have to say that this was my favorite section of the book. I liked how it showed the internal struggle of trying to choose between something that you fear and something that you dread.
O'Brien calls himself a coward because the choices he made in this story were based on fear. O'Brien ran to go to Canada because he was afraid of the war. When Elroy gave O'Brien the chance to escape to Canada O'Brien turned around because he feared losing respect from his family. He feared giving up his country. I disagree with O'Brien calling himself a coward because he eventually faced his fears of the war.
ReplyDeleteO'Brien never told the story because it was a shameful part of his life. He ran from the war instead of manning up to it. He was afraid to be marked a coward.
Elroy influenced O'Brien's decision by providing a place for him to think over his thought. The last thing Elroy did was bring O'Brien to Canada was bring him to the border and force him to face his shame. At the border of Canada O'Brien realized he couldn't run away and leave his country.
O'Brien calls himself a coward even though he went to the war because he was to scare to break conformity. In the beginning he tells the reader its completely against his morals and that he doesn't understand why all the rich families an the government kids don't have to go. O'Brien doesnt care at all about the war.
ReplyDeleteHe breaks his fear of conformity and decides to run away. As he runs away though he gains another fear of bringing shame to his family and the ridicule he will bring to his family name.Every man is going to the war in the town he should too they think but that's not how things should work.
When he is on the boat with Elroy he starts to hallucinate and sees all the towns people calling for him, past presidents, and even dead people. Again he is faced with another decison should he run or stay? He staye which in my eyes was a corageous move. It's kind of a contraiction because he was corageous for going to the war everyone hated but was a coward for not breaking the conformity of back then
When O'Brien said he was a coward he meant that he feared public shame more then the war itself. Because he thought so highly of how others saw him he wasn't able to follow his heart. Men in that time were seen as protectors of their country. Men were suppose to be brave soldiers who faced danger head on and so in the end O'Brien feared being seen as a coward, which in his mindset made him a coward. In a way I can agree that he acted like a coward. He knew at its core the Vietnam war was unjust; so instead of following his beliefs he allowed his fear to conform him. He just seemed like another sheep chasing the herd instead of doing what he wanted. He might've had shame over what he went through. He was so conflicted with what path to choose that he spent a week trying to decide what to do. He probably shares the story now to make a point that although one could be labeled as a "soldier", not all soldiers were willing to fight in the first place.
ReplyDeleteElroy was like something steady for O'Brien to hold on to. O'Brien was in such turmoil that he needed that silent presence there to keep some normalcy in life. Elroy didn't urge him to decide anything and he was even giving quite a few options to run away or stay. There was no judgement with the old man.
O'Brien never told this story before because of the embarrassment. While floating on the river, O'Brien had a revelation - an episode - where he completely broke down emotionally. During this experience, O'Brien realized that he must go to war, despite the fact he always told himself he would do what his heart told him to do. I personally loved this section. "On the Rainy River" explores and delves into Tim O'Briens thoughts and desires. Elroy plays a pivotal role in this section and in O'Brien's life. Elroy listens. He does not intervene or try to fix much, he just let's the problem take its own course. Elroy has faith that O'Brien will come to the needed conclusion.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of “On the Rainy River,” O’Brien does indeed refer to himself as a coward, but his reasoning for doing so is wrongly influenced in many ways, one of which is his constant worrying “what will others think of me?” O’Brien calls himself a coward for going to war, but he should have been calling himself a coward for running away from the war when somewhere, deep in his soul, in the fiber of his being, he knew he couldn’t run forever. He had to face facts. He was terrified of the ceaseless stigma that would follow him wherever he went if he fled from the war; even if no one was there to confront him on it all-day, every-day, he knew that deep down he would terrorize himself over his cowardly actions for the rest of his life, he knew that this would be a decision that would influence him forever. I agree with O’Brien in considering that he had two options, flee to Canada and face the shame and stigma that it would not only bring him, but his entire family; or he could return home and face his future in the war just like anyone else, no matter how much he feared and disagreed with it. In the end, O’Brien chose to face the facts and fight a war that he disagreed with, regardless of its costs and future repercussions.
ReplyDeleteO’Brien’s fear of an unfavorable stigma, public embarrassment and shame prevented him from sharing his story and private turmoil with anyone for such a long time until he finally realized and came to terms with the fact that it was truly the only way for him to move on.
Elroy influenced O’Brien’s thoughts, actions and decisions in many ways. He did this by avoiding “touchy subjects.” Elroy’s behavior often conflicts O’Brien, but eventually helped him make the right decision without being “forced” to do so. O’Brien reaches his decision while on the river as he reflects on his past and predicts his two vastly different, yet so tangible futures. He reflects greatly on past achievements and how this one major decision will bring disgrace and humiliation to those around him.
While reading this section, I almost felt sorry for O’Brien, despite disagreeing with his actions in responding to his “fight-or-flight” instinct. O’Brien’s distinct use of literary elements made me really “connect” with the character. It almost made me feel as if I were sitting in the boat with him and Elroy as thoughts were spilling through his head, and life-altering decisions were being made.
O'Brien calls himself a coward because he went to war. When he was in the boat, just 20 feet away from the Canadian border, O'Brien makes the choice to stay and fight in a war he didn't believe in. A'lot of people say that he thinks himself a coward because he waivered in the patriotic need to go to war, but I say that he was a coward for not taking that jump and swimming to Cananda. O'Brien didn't stand up for himself and his beliefs. He imagined everyone he knew and what they would say about him, and he didn't make the brave choice. The brave choice would be to throw off what everyone would think of him and run for it, but instead he conformed to society's need for "brave" men to fight in a pointless war; The easy way out.
ReplyDeleteO'Brien doesn't share this story because others would judge him for almost fleeing, for being "cowardly". I think O'Brien tells his story now because in this book no one can read it, with all of the horrors he experienced, and say "That guy had no right to want to flee".
At the end on "On the Rainy River," O'Brien called himself a coward. Most people would think that he was just the opposite of a coward for choosing to go into the war. O'Brien thinks differently than most people. He calls himself a coward because he is going into a war that he doesn't believe in. He had an opportunity to run away to Canada, but he buckled under the pressure while sitting in the boat just 20 feet away from the Canadian border. He was thinking about what everybody back home would think of him. He didn't want to be called a coward. He was too worried about what others would think, and now about what he wanted.
ReplyDeleteO'Brien doesn't share these experiences with anyone before because he is embarrassed about it. He didn't want people to think badly of him because he would have rather fled the country than fight a war that he didn't believe in.
At the end of "On the Rainy River" O'Brien refers to himself as a coward for going to war simply due to the fact that he had the perfect oppotunity to escape going to war. On O'Brien's last day staying at the Tip Top Lodge with owner Elroy Berdahl, the owner takes him fishing into Canadian territory on purpose knowing that he would have the perfect oppotunity to flee if he realy wanted to. O'Brien ends up not fleeing and returning home to go to war. I do not agree with O'Brien calling himself a coward because it was his duty as a citizen of the U.S. to serve his country and in my opinion, he would be the ultimate coward if he did choose to flee to Canada and escape the draft. If thousands of other American men are willing to have their lives at risk when they would obviously prefer not to, so can O'Brien. O'Brien chooses not to tell the story because he feels so awful about himself even considering to runaway and it would've been a huge disgrace to not only his family back home, but the community as well. What O'Brien does a lot is he tells rather unpleasant stories from war throughout the novel as a way to get it off his mind and put the past behind him as he did with his experience of almost fleeing from war. In addition, I believe Elroy taking O'Brien on that little fishing boat into Canadian territory without saying anything about war was a very crucial action on his part to the novel as a whole. Giving O'Brien the very subtle yet powerful notion that he has an opportunity to escape the war really tested O'Brien's masculinity and bravery to see if he would step up to the plate and fight for his country and hometown, or run from his problems and make a real coward of himself to not only his peers, but country as well.
ReplyDeleteTim O'Brien's entire story "The Rainy River" is based on shame and embarrassment and bravery and cowardice. When his draft letter arrived, O'Brien wanted nothing more than to take off and run to Canada. To most people, this would seem like an act of cowardice, but, to him, it was the bravest thing that he could have done. To O'Brien, the coward's way out would have been to go to the war and not have to face the shame, embarrassment, and ridicule that would accompany running away. At the end, on Elroy's boat, staring into the water--into the faces of all the people whose disappointment in him would be too much to bear--he said "I was a coward. I went to the war." I had always thought that going to war was something that a man would see as honorable. O'Brien made his opinion of the war perfectly clear in the beginning of this chapter. Going to war would not have been honorable for him because he disapproved of it, believed that the reason for battle wasn't good enough. O'Brien wasn't afraid of the war, he was afraid of the disapproval and shame he would eventually face if he ran away.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI believe O'Brien was referring to the fact that letting the pressure of home and the fear of how people's opinion of him would change if he didn't go to war get to him was the main factor of why he saw himself as a coward. He wanted so badly to not give in to the encouragement of fighting a war where nobody even really knew its purpose. I don't agree that he was a coward for deciding to enlist in the war because he is doing a great deed by fighting for the honor of his country. I think the story was not mentioned before because of again, the fear of being seen as a coward. The presence of Elroy was a big factor in the decision O'Brien made regarding the war. I think that Elroy didn't discuss the war with O'Brien because he wanted Tim do what in his heart he knew was right. By taking him to the shoreline overlooking Canada O'Brien was presented with best opportunity to make his decision. He is ashamed and embarrassed by the fact that he does not follow through with his original intentions and feels stripped as a man. But I think he knew the decision he made was the right one because the true influence on him was more himself and not as much Elroy. Elroy was just the one who forced him to approach the situation and choose his path.
ReplyDeleteThe narrator says he was a coward for going to war because he did not follow his heart. He did not want to go to war, but he was too afraid of what everyone else would think if he fled. I agree that he was a coward for not doing what he believed was right. I don’t think O’Brien has ever told this story because he was ashamed of it and did not want to be judged. He decided to tell it now because stories are meant to be told, even if they are not heroic or life-altering. Elroy does not verbally influence O’Brien, but his presence and understanding of O’Brien’s situation helps him reach a decision. The idea that men should be courageous and tough also played a part in his decision. He was afraid of embarrassing himself and losing his masculinity. While reading this section I did not think any less of O’Brien or his decision to go to war.
ReplyDeleteWhat the narrator is trying to say is that he is a coward for going to war because he didn't agree with war in the first place. He was too embarrassed to face his family and friends, he thought of running away, which would have been more brave than going to war. Elroy influenced O'Brien by not influencing him at all. What I mean by that is that he did not pressure O'Brien into doing anything that he did or did not want to do and he left him in peace. This chapter was a good chapter to show you who O'Brien was and to show the reader his thoughts on the war and why he was there in the first place.
ReplyDeleteO'Brien calls himself a coward because instead of sticking up for what he believes in, he gives in and enters the war. He had the option of staying in Canada and avoiding fighting a battle he didn't trust. I disagree with Tim thinking he is cowardly because it takes massive amounts of courage to fight in a war that opposes his beliefs. I think O'Brien was embarrassed of running away from the draft, and that's why he kept the story untold. From what I understand, the reason Tim is just now telling this story is because it's the tale that creates the whole book. If you think about it, if Tim never went back to the states, there would be no war stories and there would be no book. Plus, it adds a bit of a twist to the story. From the beginning of the novel, O'Brien seemed like a very patriotic and dedicated solider. It shocked me when I learned that he practically forced himself to go back to the states so that he could fight in the Vietnam Conflict. Elroy Berdahl influenced O'Brien to be himself and do what makes him happiest. I enjoyed this story because it explained more of Tim's past and opinions on the war beforehand.
ReplyDeleteAs already stated and restated above, I also believe O'Brien calls himself a coward because his motive for going into war was the fear of everyone else's opinions. I can also see how one can agree and disagree with this statement. Sure, it is generally an honorable duty for a person to fight for his/her country, but it is also horrible thing for a person to deny his/her own hopes and dreams. It seems to me that everything in life is somehow a contradiction, and war manages to magnify the irony in peoples' life decisions. This heroism or cowardice - which ever you may look at it - can be mirrored in Elroy's actions too. Yes, he single-handedly influenced O'Brien's decision, but he technically did nothing, except his daily routine. So this is my question: how are we able to distinguish the right and wrong in the gray of life? This chapter shows a great deal of who O'Brien is and how raw his emotions can get. This major decision had no right or wrong solution. There wasn't a single person who could make the decision for him. The only thing that ultimately drove him to an outcome was fear.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of "On the Rainy River," I believe that O'Brien called himself a coward because he went to war not because of pride in his country and willingness to do anything to defend it. He went to war because he feared ridicule and shame. I disagree with this statement because I respect anybody who enters war, for whatever reason. It takes extreme guts and courage to enter a war that you are unsure of. No matter what the motivation is, the risks and danger are the same. War is no matter to be taken lightly, and anybody who serves our country has my respect. O'Brien has never told this story because he is humiliated by it. He had an emotional breakdown and he wasn't acting like a fearless American soldier. He was a scared kid. I think he is telling the story now because it has been eating away at him ever since it happened and he needed to get it off of his chest. Elroy had a huge influence on O'Brien's decision to enter the war because he gave him the opportunity and let him taste the freedom of Canada. Being so close led O'Brien to the realization that even though Elroy would allow him to leave without a second glance, not everybody would feel the same way. He knew this when he began to see the jury surround each side of the river. The shame of disappointing everybody who was cheering him onto the war swayed him into entering the war to avoid embarrassment for himself and his family. I thought that this was a very powerful selection because it showed that not every soldier was as ready to pick up and leave as it may have seemed.
ReplyDeleteO'Brien calls himself a coward because instead of following his heart he went into the war. He went into the war because he feared the shame of the others opinions if he fled to Canada. I disagree with this because it takes courage to go into the war and he ended up facing his fear of the war. O'Brien never told this story because he was embarrassed of running away from the draft. I think he his telling the story now is because the guilt was eating away at him and he needed to get it off of his chest. Elroy influenced O'Brien to be himself. Elroy has faith in O'Brien that in the end he will make the right choice. I really enjoyed this part of the story because it showed O'Brien's opinions on the war before he went into it.
ReplyDeleteI agree that O'brian was a coward for caving in and not fleeing the states. I don't think that he's a coward for serving his country though, I think he's a coward because he gave up a perfectly good chance to escape to Canada. I also think that he hasn't told anyone this story because he thought that people would look down on him for trying to flee and giving up on it, not to mention the overwhelming guilt he was most likely enduring with his stay with Elroy, it's human nature to not share stories that we're guilty about. Elroy did the right thing for O'brian, he turned the other cheek and let O'brian make his own decision and trusted him to do the right thing. While reading this, I felt bad for O'brian, it was almost hard to read for me.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of “On the Rainy River”, O'Brien calls himself a coward. A coward is a person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things. He didn't follow his heart and he went to war. O'Brien never really agreed with war. He went to war because he feared what others would think of him if he ran away, not because he wanted to. He would be embarrassed and looked down upon if he ran away. I don’t think he is a coward. Even if O'Brien ran away I wouldn't call him a coward. He was pushed into something he didn't agree with. He had never told this story to anyone, including his wife. He chose to tell it now because he thought it would take a weight off his shoulders. He was ashamed by it and thought people would look at him differently. People make soldiers out to be fearless, brave, and courageous. O’Brien didn't feel that way about himself. He had an emotional breakdown on the boat. He had to choose between going to Canada, and fighting for his county. He chose to turn around and go to war. He was ashamed of himself. Elroy influenced O'Brien's decision by not influencing him. He gave him the opportunity but he didn't push that decision on him. Elroy just wanted O'Brien to make the right choice. I really enjoyed this section of the book. He faced his fears and went to war. I don’t really know where my mind is right now, I don’t think he made the right decision because he didn't follow his dreams, but I think he made the right decision by going to war.
ReplyDeleteWhat he means by "I was a coward, I went to the war" is that he didn't go to the war because it was the honorable thing, he went to the war because he was afraid of what everyone would think of him if he skipped out. He was worried what his family would think of him and what others would say about him back home if he were to leave rather than go to war. I completely agree. I hate that he was only thinking about his self image and being honorable rather than doing what was probably right. He's never told anyone before because he knew that his intentions and reasons were completely dishonorable and didn't want anyone to know that. Elroy influenced his decision by not putting any input in at all. He sat quietly and never brought it up. Although he knew, he wasn't going to try to tell him what or what not to do. So it gave O'Brien the ability to make his own choice. His masculinity and self-image is truly what inspired his decision. As well as not shaming himself and his family. I'd rather he skipped town instead of going for the wrong reasons.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of "on the Rainy River," the narrator of the book called himself a coward because he didn't run away, and chose to go to the war. He thought that going to war would prove his masculinity, rather than taking a stand against. He didn't want to live with the idea that his friends and family would be ashamed to know him because he ran off. He thought it was embarrassing to not go to war because he didn't believe in it. And I do believe he acted in a cowardly way. Not for serving in the war, but for compromising his morals for what other people thought of him. He had the opportunity right in front of him to leave and he chickened out. Though, I can see how someone would think he was brave. He overcame his fear of going to war. He was willing to face the idea he could lose everything in this war, but suddenly it didn't matter, and he overcame it for the greater good. I do believe Elroy helped in this decision. He did absolutely nothing different in his life. He just let O'Brien think about the decision, and when it was time for him to go just took him out and let him choose whether or not to follow through with his plans.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of "On the Rainy River," when he was with Elroy at the cabin debating whether or not he should go to Canada to escape the draft. He didn't believe in any of the reasons for going into the war. He thought that if he didn't believe in it that he shouldn't have to fight for it. He didn't even know the real reasons. He believes he was a coward because he went for all the wrong reasons and none of them he believed in. I don't believe he is a coward because he still went to the war although it's not what he wanted to do. I know that it is a tough decision and he did the more manly thing by going. He didn't tell anyone about this story because he was embarrassed that he even had to decide and he didn't want to be judged for his decision and his intentions. He came out with it now because he doesn't want it haunting him and he's trying to convey the real thoughts and the real story of war that someone could understand. And to do that he had to be completely honest about what happened inside his head when he got the draft notice.
ReplyDeleteElroy is not a man of many words and he chose to stay quiet most of the time. He influenced O'Brien's decision by forcing him to make his own decision without any other outside variable to change his mind. It was completely up to him. He made the decision when he went out into the river to fish with Elroy. He was only twenty meters from the Canadian border. He could've jumped and swam there without any problem. Or he could've stayed on the boat and stayed in America, he cried at first then he came to his decision. Shame affected his decision mentally because he was afraid to be shamed by others and he would be ashamed of himself. He'd be embarrassed to see his family after. So he decided to go the war anyway. When I was reading this decision, I understood what he described he was going through.
I agree with O’Brien’s statement when he said, “I was a coward, I went to war.” He is a coward. Since he was going to risk his life for his country in an area with bombs, napalm, disease, guns and knives you would think that is not a cowardly decision. It was cowardly for one reason, O’Brien was afraid of what people would think of him if he fled. That should never influence anyone’s personal decisions, especially one of this much importance. He would be embarrassed for fleeing to Canada instead of fighting for his country. He faced a tradeoff, flee and be considered a coward by your friends and family or go to war and consider yourself a coward. You see, Mr. O’Brien did not want to go to war, he didn’t believe anybody from America should have been there and frankly I think the same thing. So it was cowardly of him to shy away from what he believed and wanted to do for himself to please his friends and family and conform to society’s standard. I feel like he finally decided to share this story now because every story deserves to be told and he was at the point where he was mature enough to deal with his actions and choices in the past. Since it was all said and done, he gave in, went to war and came back, he might as well share his thoughts about which route he decided to take on that fateful day on the Rainy River twenty feet from freedom.
ReplyDeleteTo any person who was not aware of O'Brien's thoughts while he was struggling between crossing over to Canada to escape the war or to join, they might as well say that his choice to join the war was an act of courage and bravery. To those who knew his thoughts and knew that his decisions were based off of the fear of not joining the war and leaving the rest of his life behind for Canada. Yes, I agree that O'Brien was showing cowardice while joining the war. O'Brien was simply afraid of leaving his old life behind knowing that there would be talk off when he fled from the country to escape serving our country.
ReplyDeleteElroy had the impact on Tim that he did not only because of his hospitality but because of his silence. Elroy never prodded for answers to anything that didn't concern him. Through this O'Brien was able to think on his own with out interference.
This particular story had me sympathizing with O'Brien. I am very afraid to risk my own life. As much as I would love to be one to take risks and serve our country, it just simply is not me or something I am capable of allowing myself to do.
The narrator means that he was too scared to stand up for what he believed in. He was too scared to go against the grain, to cause a splash, so instead he went to war. On one hand, I agree that he was too scared to run away from the war, but on the other hand, I think that he was brave for staying and doing his duty. It wasn’t that he was doing his duty to his country, but he was doing it for his town, his parents. This way, his hometown wouldn’t be able to gossip about “the cowardly O’Brien” boy, and his parents wouldn’t have to live with the shame of raising a deserter. By going to war, he ensured that his parents and town would look upon him as a good boy, doing what was expected of him. O’Brien never told this story because it was obviously embarrassing, but he feels the need to “get it off his chest,” so to speak. Elroy is the one who saved O’Brien during that time. Elroy didn’t expect anything of O’Brien, just offered his company. Elroy never asked what he was doing there, or what he was planning on doing, he just gave O’Brien the space he needed to figure himself out. O’Brien finally decides on going to war, for a single reason: he is too embarrassed not to. He doesn’t want people to gossip about him, look down on him, or shun him for running away from the war. As O’Brien said, he went to war, to kill people, because he was embarrassed not to.
ReplyDeleteWhen the narrator says he was a coward and went to war, he means that he was too afraid to stand up for what he believes in. He was too afraid to take a chance and do something spontaneous and different, unlike anything he’s ever done before. I do not agree with his statement because I think he was courageous to go to war. It must be a hard thing to put your life on the line and know you might not come out of something alive, but he made that sacrifice to his country, and for that I think he was courageous in his decision to go to war. His decision to go to war definitely comes with lots of embarrassment. He also is not very masculine. When he finds out about the draft, he runs away from his problems. He plans to move to Canada so he does not have to go fight in the war. He is a coward. When he finally decides to go to war, he starts crying on Elroy’s boat and he thinks about all the people that love him and are in his life. He also thinks about all the people he is going to meet in war and his future life ahead of him. This saddens the narrator because he feels embarrassed of his decisions in life. He also feels embarrassed of what he wants to do at the moment, which is jump and start a new life in Canada. He imagines everybody there watching him make his important decision, and he does what he knows would please the people in his life.
ReplyDeleteTim O’Brien calls himself a coward because he gave in to all the pressure put on him about going to war because it was the right thing for the country even though he thought he was too good for it. He should have left the states in order to get away from all the pressure. He knows if he doesn’t go he will be all everyone will talk about. He tries to run from his feeling and get to Canada but he was too much of a coward to escape his old life in order to not fight in a war he has never supported. After some thought and shed tears he decides it would be too embarrassing not to go to war. He is a man which means he has to prove he is willing to fight for his country even if he doesn’t truly support it. The narrator describes courage to be like an inheritance, and it just keeps gradually going up as you go through life. Tim O’Brien needed more courage not to go to war but in the end, he still left to fight.
ReplyDeleteO’Brien never told his story before because he was embarrassed. While on the river he had an episode where he broke down emotionally and came up with the decision that he should go to war, even though he told himself to listen to what his heart told him to do. Elroy gave O’Brien a place to stay to think over his decision without question and without judgment because in the end Elroy knew that O’Brien would make the right decision. Elroy gave O’Brien the chance to flee to Canada but O’Brien was afraid that he would lose the respect he got from his family so he came back to Minnesota with Elroy and paid what he owed and went home and went to war. I disagree with O’Brien calling himself a coward because he faced his biggest fear of war.
ReplyDeleteThe narrator's quote meant that he was too scared to face the social ridicule that fleeing the war would bring him. I don't agree with him though. I think it takes more courage to go to a war, especially one that you vehemently disagree with, than to run away.
ReplyDeleteO'Brien has never told this story because it has always embarrassed him. He's telling it now, though, because he thinks that, in writing it, some pressure to keep it away will be relieved.
Elroy is a quiet man of 81 years who doesn't pry into O'Brien problems. He doesn't ask where O'Brien came from, or what he was doing there. He seemed to have a hunch why O'Brien came, and that O'Brien couldn't talk about it. This was the exact kind of person that O'Brien needed at this point in time. If Elroy had said one wrong word, or pried to hard, O'Brien would have left immediately. O'Brien needed support, not someone trying to fix him. When the time comes for O'Brien to decide whether to go or not, he tries to swim to Canada, but can't find the courage to. The embarrassment of fleeing the war kept him in that boat.
While reading this section, I could understand how O'Brien feared the war and death, but I didn't think running away was the right answer. I don't a few years in the war is worse than the ridicule he would receive, and the much harder life he would receive as an illegal immigrant in Canada.
I do not believe that O'Brien's decision to go to war was cowardly at all. Although he thinks that by not standing up for himself and fleeing the war he is being a craven, I think that going into war is braver. By going to war, O'Brien saved his family from the shame of a run-away son, and he also is doing his duty to his country and hometown by fighting. Elroy is a very influential part of O'Brien's life and his decision to go to war. Elroy didn't push him very hard in either direction and instead just listened to O'Brien and let him make his own choices. He gave O'Brien good advice and just allowed him to come to a conclusion because Elroy trusted that he would come to a good decision. Embarrassment and shame definitely came into play while O'Brien was contemplating whether or not to run from the war. He didn't want to poison his name by fleeing and forever being known as the boy who ran away from his duty. He wanted to prove that he was a valiant man, even though he was scared of going into the war and dying.
ReplyDeleteWhen O'Brien says "I was a coward. I went to war," he meant that by going to war he was running away from the judgemental comments from his community for fleeing the country. By going to war he would not get those comments and he is there fore being a coward for not wanting to be judged by his community. I some what agree that it is cowardish of him to only go to war to avoid judgement, buton the other view going to war is a very brave thing to do. He knew that he could run away to Canada to avoid being drafted but he choose to stay in the states and go to war anyways. He conformed to society so he wouldn't be thought of as a coward. He did not tell of this stroy until now because he was afraid that others would too think of him as a coward because he did not follow up on his plan to flee. Another reason he might have felt like a coward would be that if he told the story of how he planned and started his trip to flee to the Canadian border people would see that as running away from his american duty to protect his nationj, even though the war in Vietnam was pointless.
ReplyDeleteO'Brien says "I was a coward. I went to war" because he couldn't cope with what he should do at home. O'Brien didn't understand why he should stay, but he couldn't find it in himself to stay, and so he fled to the war because he was afraid. I don't feel that he was a coward, I feel though as if O'Brien wasn't sure of himself, so he went to war trying to find himself. O'Brien never really told this story to anyone else because he couldn't handle it himself, he thought that he was a coward and so that others could not look at him as a soldier or man if they knew this was the reason that he had gone to war. Elroy represented all of his family, his friends, his hometown in this hard decision O'Brien was facing. When O'Brien went fishing on the final day, Elroy was the influence of America on O'Brien, who was a man and failed to leave because of his role as a man. Going to war was the only thing he could find to remember that he is a man, that he is not a coward. It was a really defining moment for O'Brien, it showed his originality before going to the war and it shows readers even more how the war changed O'Brien as a person.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of “On the Rainy River” the narrator calls himself a coward for going into the war, and not sticking to his beliefs. He calls himself a coward for not fleeing to Canada when he had the chance. Because O’Brien was too caught up in the idea of what others would say about him and his family, he threw away what he thought was right, to fight in a meaningless war in Vietnam. I don’t agree that he was a coward; I believe that he was just conflicted and stuck between a rock and a hard place. There were pros and cons to each decision and he just needed time to think both options through. O’Brien has never told this story before because he is embarrassed the idea of fleeing to Canada to avoid the war even crossed his mind. He is even more embarrassed because he actually ran away to the Tip Top Lodge for a few days without even telling his family. He shares the story now to lay the past to rest and to thank Elroy for his generous hospitality and everything he has done to help. Elroy was a quiet old man who knew all along why O’Brien came to his lodge, but wouldn’t say. He had a huge influence on O’Brien’s decision because when Elroy took him fishing on the river, he showed O’Brien how close Canada was and showed him how easy it was to flee from the war if he really wanted to. O’Brien ignored his impulse to jump into the water and swim away from his troubles, because he felt ashamed of himself. He knew fleeing was a cowardly thing to do, especially when hundreds of other men were fighting without a second thought. He knew he would have embarrassed his family and would have been perceived as less masculine, so he decided to fight. While reading this section, I thought his reaction to hearing about the draft was natural. Nobody wants to be put in a situation where they have a good chance of not surviving. What makes it even tougher for O’Brien is the fact that he was a spectacular student, and didn’t even believe in the war. His confused nature throughout the section is in my opinion is understandable.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of "On a Rainy River" O'Brien calls himself a coward for going to the war because he was embarrassed and ashamed of the thought of being someone who flees to another country because of fear of the war. He was too much of a coward to leave behind everything he had ever known and deal with what friends and family might think of him if he left. O'Brien had never told this story before because he's ashamed of the fact he actually left home and went North as if he was going to leave (which at the time he didn't know if he was really going to). Telling the story of what he almost did is as bad as him actually doing it. Elroy was very helpful but didn't ever ask or tell O'Brien what he should do, he left that up to O'Brien. Elroy gave him the chance to jump out of the boat and leave everything behind, but he didn't. O'Brien goes to war to escape the shame and ridicule he'd receive if he left. He wouldn't be as much of a 'man' if he left. He would look weak.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of “On the Rainy River” the narrator calls himself a coward for going into the war, and not sticking up for what he believes in and what he is about as a person. He calls himself a coward for not fleeing to Canada when he had the perfect opportunity. He was sitting in the old fishing boat with Elroy, and all seemed well. All was not well, Obrien had to make a decision not only for himself but for his family, friends, town, and the people of America. Obrien was too caught up In the idea of what others would think about him so he threw all his hopes, dreams, and beliefs away to fight in a war that basically accomplished nothing in the end, and killed many great soldiers, and people. I deeply disagree with his statement on calling himself a coward because I respect the people of this country who give up everything in their lives to fight for our rights. It takes a lot to fight a war, not knowing what you are getting into, and if it is even important. Obrien is by no means a coward for risking his life for our country. Obrien has never told this story before because he is not happy about it and humiliated by it. He was just a normal boy who was scared of the thought of dying without ever chasing after his dreams. He decides to tell this story now to make present the fact that soldiers aren’t always this strong stereotypical figure we often think of them as. They are still normal American citizens fighting for our rights, and who are scared out of their wits. Elroy’s influence in Obrien is huge. I think Elroy knew that Obrien had to make a choice; either flee for Canada, and forever be ashamed of you, or fight in the war and tough it out. Obrien knew Elroy knew this and it played a major role in his decision. Elroy gave Obrien the opportunity to taste Canada and the freedoms he could have. Being that close to Canada and his freedoms gave Obrien the realization that he shouldn’t do this. He would be full of shame and indignity, and could never see his family again without feeling some kind of guilt. This section was by far my favorite part in the whole book. You could feel the tension in the boat, and Obrien’s mind racing on what he should do. Just the power of this section of the novel was great.
ReplyDeleteTim O'Brien calls himself a coward because he is afraid of letting his parents, friends, town, and country down so he did not leave for Canada. I think Tim O'Brien was a coward because he was not able to face up to his fears and do what he thought was right for him. O'Brien never shared this story because of embarrassment, but I think he wanted to share what he felt before he entered the war. Elroy is an old man who owns a motel in a popular tourist town. Elroy gives O'Brien the opportunity to flee to Canada by swinging the fishing boat around right next to the Canadian shoreline. O'Brien makes his decision not to go to the war because he is to afraid of jumping out of that boat and letting everyone down. While reading this section I could really feel how Tim O'Brien was torn based on the decision he made.
ReplyDeleteO'Brien calls himself a coward because he went to war, not because he wanted to, but because he didn't want to be considered the coward that fleed the country to escape the war. I don't think it was right of O'Brien to brand himself a coward because he did what he had to do. A lot of people would be terrified to go to war and try and get out of it but he stuck it through even though he didn't want to. He never shared this story I think because it was a shameful part of his past but he shared it to help him get past this part in his life. Elroy plays an important role in O'Brien's decision to go to war. He never questioned or pressured him one way or the other which helped O'Brien think for himself. Elroy gave him the opportunity to go to Canada when he took him fishing but it was the embarrassment of being branded as a coward that made O'Brien decide to go to war. While reading this section I could feel the tension O'Brien was feeling about fleeing or going to war, it was a really powerful section of the story to me.
ReplyDeleteIn "On the Rainy River," O'Brien tells why he went to Vietnam instead of Canada. His reason for going to Vietnam rather than Canada was, ironically, fear. O'brien considered himself a coward because he WENT to war. Which, in my opinion, is the opposite of being a coward. It takes courage to go to war and most people don't have that amount of courage. He was a hero. This was a shameful part of his life and didn't like owning up to it. He didn't want to be labeled.
ReplyDeleteElroy is a man who doesn't push himself into O'Brien's problems or life. If Elroy had said one wrong word, or tried to hard, O'Brien would have left immediately. O'Brien needed support, not someone trying to fix him. When the time comes for O'Brien to decide whether to go or not, he wants to go to Canada, but can't find the courage to. The embarrassment of fleeing the war kept him in that boat. I could understand how O'Brien feared the war and death, but I didn't think running away was the right answer.
O’Brien calls himself a coward because instead of standing up for what he believes in, and doing what he truly wants he gives in to the war. He is afraid of how others would perceive him if he did not fight for his country. I agree with him because he let himself down and did not stand up for his beliefs however, staying in the war and defending his country even though he did not want to shows that he has some bravery.
ReplyDeleteO’Brien never told this story before now because he was still scared of what people would think of him. He stated that his reason for finally getting it off his chest is so he could “relieve at least some of the pressure on my dreams.”
Elroy influenced O’Brien by giving him a choice to think over. Should he live with the shame or jump on the bandwagon? Elroy was also someone who would not judge Tim either way. He was simply there for support. When the emotional breakdown on the boat happened, Elroy knew to stay quiet because ultimately it was Tim’s decision.
I enjoyed reading this section because it gave an insight to Tim O’Brien that we could not have guessed at before. In the previous stories I did not even think about him having a tough time making the decision because it seemed like he wanted to be a soldier.
O’Brien calls himself a coward at the end of "On the Rainy River” because he ran away from his problems meaning the war. I don’t think he was a coward because he did come back but he was in shock and fearful and acted on impulse than logic. He never told the story to his family because he was scared they would be disappointed with him for taking the easy way out and running. Now he’s telling the story because he was able to get over the shame of himself for the actions and feeling he had when he ran. Elroy the proprietor of Tip Top Lodge where O’Brien stayed. Since it wasn’t tourist season it was just Elray and O’Brien. Elroy helps O'Brien make his ultimate decision about the war by giving him space. Elroy must have known what he was doing but never let on he knew. He let O’Brien take his time and figure things out for himself because you judgement can get clouded with other people thoughts. O’Brien makes the decision to go to war when he and Elroy go on a fishing trip and Elroy stops the boat near the Canadian shore line. O’Brien reflects on his life and realizes he could face his shame or judgment. This section of the book was one of my favorites because it shows that even grown men can be scared.
ReplyDeleteI would have to disagree when O'Brien calls himself a coward. In the end he does end up facing his fears and going to war. War is a very terrifying experience for anyone, the Vietnam War especially. He didn't tell the story until now because he was afraid of what people would think and he was embarrassed. I liked reading this story because it gave me more insight of who Tim O'Brien really was. He wasn't always this tough guy and I think that it makes the overall novel a better read.
ReplyDeleteWhen O'Brian calls himself a coward for going into the war, I think it's because he finally gave into the will of society and is conforming to what society expects of young men during the time of war. I also believe that he feels cowardly because he didn't stand up to his towns people, family, and him self about his believes about the war. I think that O'Brian hasn't told the story of On The Rainy River was because he was embarrassed and ashamed of the way he felt about protecting the country that he lives in. He was also afraid of being judged because of his stand of the war. What pushed him to tell his story now was because he felt a gratitude towards Elroy for helping his get through a rough patch, and for helping him decide to do the "right" thing. Elroy helped him by giving him the space and time that he needed, but also gently and very calmly getting his point across without being overbearing or letting his opinions to effect the final decision that O'Brian would make. The roll of embarrassment, masculinity, and shame played in his decision was that he didn't want to not meet societies standards for young men at the time, and didn't want to be viewed as weak or selfish for not going into the war, and not wanting to disappoint his family.
ReplyDeleteO'Brien calls himself a coward because he didn't go into war to fight for the country, he went into war because that was expected of him. He couldn't stand up for himself, he couldn't face how he thought people would think of him if he didn't go into war. I don't think O'Brien ever told the story before because he was embarrassed of his thoughts about not wanting to go into war. He didn't want people to think less of him. Elroy helps him tell the story. He convinces him to return to war without really even saying much at all. When O'Brien and Elroy went on a fishing trip next to the Canadian border O'Brien realized how easy it would be to just leave and not have to go to war. however; he reflects on his thoughts and realizes how much of a disgrace he would be to his family and country and makes the decision to return to war. Shame, embarrassment, and masculinity have all to do with O'Brien returning to the war. He takes all of those things into account and thats why he went back. He didn't go back because it was ultimately what he wanted, he went because he didn't like the thought of how people would look at him if he didn't. I don't think O'Brien all that bad for thinking the way he did. Going to war is a big deal, you never know if you're going to get out. I feel that almost every soldier has these thoughts at some point during their war experience. I don't blame him.
ReplyDeleteO’Brien calls himself a coward at the end of “On the Rainy River” because during his time in the war he constantly was avoiding his problems and running away from them. I do not think O’Brien is a coward because it is a human’s natural reaction to run away when they are scared. If I was ever put into his situation I would do the same thing. The reason he had never told his family the stories from the war because he was afraid of their disapproval. As a grown man he was expected to stare into the face of danger but instead he ran away, he feared that his family would be ashamed of his actions so he kept his stories to himself. When O’Brien ran away from home to avoid going to war he traveled north and met Elroy, the owner of Tip Top Lodge. Elroy had one of the greatest influences on O’Brien’s decisions. Elroy had O’Brien work while he stayed at the lodge and game him space and time to think and in the end was he personally took him to the border of Canada and left it to O’Brien to choose the path he would take. Realizing he would be the face of shame, O’Brien decides to return home.
ReplyDeleteO'Brien considers himself a coward because his decision to go to the war was based on his own embarrassment. I agree that he was a coward. He was so worried about being viewed as a disgrace to his family and country that he was unable to stick to his belief that the war was wrong. He feared going to war but he feared being perceived as a coward more. He didn't care about his morals, cared about what he thought everyone else would want him to do. fleeing to Canada and going to war were both tough choices, and his decision is not what made him a coward. The fact he valued other peoples thoughts more than his own is what made him a coward. I think the reason he has never told the story before is because there are so many feelings of shame and embarrassment attached to it. The story makes him admit not only to himself but to everyone else that he wasn't as brave as he thought and at the time seemed. In the novel O'Brien talks about being able to relieve pressure on his dreams. Telling the story may be his way of forgiving himself and finally letting go of the past.
ReplyDeleteO'Brien calls himself a coward at the end of "On the Rainy River" because he is embarrassed. He's embarrassed because all the choices that he made during this story were because of fear! He was scared that people would talk about him if he ran away to Canada instead of going to the war. I disagree with O'Brien calling himself a coward because he eventually went to the war and faced it. I feel that Elroy is an important character during this story. Elroy listens, he let's the problem take its own path and he doesn't try to take control. He believes that O'Brien will make the right decision and do what has to be done.
ReplyDeleteO’Brien called himself a coward because he chose going to war instead of fleeing to Canada. He thought that if he went to Canada the people back home would be disappointed with him for running from the war. I agree with O’Brien because in a war you never know when you might die. O’Brien never told this story before because he felt embarrassed and ashamed. He was so embarrassed and ashamed that he couldn’t even tell his parents, siblings, or his wife. He told the story because he thought that if he wrote it on paper he would be relieved from holding the story in so long. Elroy’s influence on O’Brien helped O’Brien come to his decision of staying to fight. Elroy was a quiet man who didn’t judge O’Brien or even question him. When they took a boat out on the river O’Brien realized that people would judge him for fleeing. Elroy didn’t tell O’Brien what to do. He waited patiently for him to reach a decision. Thoughts of shame, embarrassment, and judgment were flowing through O’Brien’s head when he made the decision to stay and fight. When I read this section, I thought that O’Brien made a good decision to go to the war. He didn’t want anyone to be ashamed of him for not going to the war so I think he made the right choice of going to avoid judgment.
ReplyDeleteO'Brien says that because he let the embarrassment of running away from the war get the better of him and now he had to go despite what he believed in. I don't agree because it takes great courage to go to a foreign land where all the natives are out to get you. O'Brien has never told the story before because he was ashamed of the fact that he got so close to fleeing the country to escape the war. He tells the story now because it is one of those things that would have haunted him forever and he felt the need to get it off of his chest. Elroy is a very simple, quiet, understanding, and humble old man. He affected O'Brien's decision by being an understanding and caring listener for O'Brien. If O'Brien didn't feel the shame or embarrassment of not being the masculine young man he was expected to be he would have gone through with running from the war. I though that this was a great section because it showed the inner thought of a very troubled person who was having a very difficult moral battle within himself.
ReplyDeleteWhen the narrator calls himself a coward he is admitting that he did not have the courage to stand up for what he believed in. His fear of seeming weak caused him to be just that. His decisions were clouded by the judgment of others, and he conformed to the expectations of the world rather than following the desires of his own heart. I do agree that he is a coward. Although the thought of disappointing the people that you love is frightening, you should never be afraid to take action for what you believe is right. O’Brien has never told this story before because he is ashamed that he wanted to run away from the war, but even more ashamed that he was too weak to do so. The guilt of the story had been bottled up inside of him and I respect his ability to be able to admit to his own mistakes. Elroy was certainly a great help to O’Brien during this time and I do not think that he was persuasive as to his final decision. Elroy made an effort to help him in any way that he could and O’Brien knew that he supported his choice either way. When O’Brien is on the boat he has to make his final decision. He sees the shore of Canada, the reality of what he fantasized, and as he tries to jump overboard he won’t allow himself. He imagines all the people in his life rooting for him to go to war and he realizes he could not bear to see their looks of encouragement turn to disappointment. He wants them to see him as a man. A man they can be proud of, and a man who would not run away.
ReplyDeleteWell, I'm sure by "I was a coward. I went to the war." the narrator meant he didn't follow his own beliefs, he followed the pack and fell to peer pressure. He thought the war was pointless, but he went anyways out of fear of what people might think about his 'betrayal'. The final factor in his decision was this sense of betrayal, knowing escape was inches away from him, but it wasn't, not really, because he was only escaping one problem and causing another, in this case his 'disgrace'.
ReplyDeleteElroy was a rather quite man, letting him hang out in the lodge until he made his choice. Honestly, he rather reminded me of the stereotypical 'Might-be-Jesus-or-something' guide character, helping people make tough decisions before mysteriously vanishing. He helped O'Brian make his decision by simply being there and with his silent understanding. At least, that's what I felt.
O'Brien feels like he a coward for going to the war because it wasn't what he wanted to do. He gave into what society thought was best but it was actually wrong for him. He didn't believe in the war or wasting a perfectly good life full of opportunity. It's hard to justify going against your beliefs. However, I think it takes a lot of bravery to fight for your country and do what you were asked to do. Although going to the war wasn't what he wanted, that doesn't mean O'Brien is a coward. O'Brien has never told this story before because he always thought it would embarrass his family. He doesn't want to confess the story and feel like he has to run away from it. He feels shameful. He tells it now because "by putting the facts down on paper, I'm hoping to relieve at least some of the pressures on my dreams" (37).
ReplyDeleteElroy is a very quiet man that doesn't need words or big actions to let O'Brien know that he understands the situation. O'Brien is very grateful for him and begins to second guess his original motives of running away from his problems. O'Brien reaches his decision when out on the river with Elroy. He mentally sees his entire town, country even, mocking him from the shore. He can't handle the shame and makes his decision, despite how terribly scared he is.
When reading this, I felt bad for O'Brien. I imagined what I would do if it were me. You build up a life for yourself and try to be the most successful person you can be and then suddenly you have to go to a foreign place and do something that terrifies you. It doesn't seem fair to me.
When O'Brien claims himself to be a coward, i agree that he is one. Everybody is taught to follow their dreams and stand up for their beliefs because success will always follow. By deciding to go into the Vietnam War, O'Brien gave up his future and decided to throw away his dreams because he was scared of what other people would think of him. Why listen to other people criticize you for following what you believe is right? I believe that O'Brien waited to share this story because he is finally able to cope with the fact that he made the wrong decision by going to war and his grieving process can finally begin. He has accepted the fact that nothing he says or does not will ever revers his time served in Vietnam so there is no use not sharing the story that changed his life forever. I think that Elroy was put into the book to resemble a father figure for O'Brien. He was a wise old man who knew the right choice was for O'Brien to follow his heart and escape for Canada and that is why he tool him fishing so close to the Canadian border. Secretly Elroy wanted what was best for O'Brien and he didn't want to see him throw his life away based on other peoples opinions. The final point where O'Brien made his decision is when he broke down crying in the boat, he thought that the humiliation would be too much if he ran so he decided to go to war. O'Brien should have felt shameful for not following his path in life and letting his fear of other's get the best of him. Since war is something that can relate to masculinity and strength i would think that O'Brien would have been more successful not heading to Vietnam. He was a smart student and he could have done something better within his choice of career. As many people above have said, this was also one of my favorite sections because it was easy to comprehend and it didn't skip around unlike the other stories.
ReplyDeleteWhen he says that he was a coward he means that he was afraid of what society would think about him running away to Canada and not going to war. He didn’t want to bring shame to his name or want people in the town to think badly of him so he decided to go to war and fight. I disagree with that statement. He says he is a coward but just about anyone in that position would fear what others would think. He shouldn’t be considered a coward because he went to a war where there was more to fear and he did his best and faced his fears. O’Brien had never told the story before because he thought it would cause embarrassment for everyone. He decided to do so now because he hoped it would relieve some of the pressure on his dreams.
ReplyDeleteElroy is a quiet man who tends to keep to himself and just do his work. He influenced O’Brien mainly through his actions. O’Brien reached his decision on whether or not to go to war while they were on the boat. He realized Elroy was giving him and open door to leave but then he realized that he should go to war and that was the right thing to do. Shame and embarrassment play a part in the fact that O’Brien didn’t want to feel these things if he didn’t go to war and then returned home. In this section I really like how Elroy took O’Brien under his wing and pretty much let O’Brien figure things out for himself with a little help from him.
When O’Brian said, “I was a coward. I went to war.” What he meant was he was a coward because of the way he went to war. O’Brian didn’t get the draft letter and head out to war bravely; he tried to find any way out of going to war. He ended up going to war only because he felt obligated by his community and felt embarrassed if he didn’t. O’Brian said that he thought all the soldiers should enter war bravely and act like heroes; not concerned with personal loss. However I don’t agree with him. He isn’t a coward, because he didn’t want to go to war. War is extremely dangerous and anyone who is called to risk their life like that should be worried. O’Brian never told this story before because he was embarrassed and ashamed of himself. Though he decides to tell the story because he says he is hoping to relieve some of the pressure on his dreams.
ReplyDeleteElroy was a quiet old man, who had a huge influence on O’Brian’s decision. Even though the two of them never discussed the predicament O’Brian was in, he knew Elroy already understood. One day Elroy took O’Brian fishing right by Canada, knowing that O’Brian was thinking of escaping, though while on the boat O’Brian broke down crying. Elroy left him alone because he wanted to let him make the decision to go to war or not on his own. In the end he picked to go to war, however shame, embarrassment, and masculinity play a huge role his decision. O’Brian did not want to be looked down upon by his community.
O’Brien believes he is a coward during this part of the book because he followed the imaginary crowd, rather than following his heart. He never told the story before because he didn’t want to be embarrassed, however, with all of the other stories he’s been telling, he wanted to separate this from himself also. Elroy took O’Brien in and let O’Brien make his own decision during the six day stretch he was with him. O’Brien made a final decision when he noticed the imaginary crowd that would be disappointed in him if he jumped and fled his country. In this section I thought that O’Brien did what he thought was right, and that’s good on his part to not flee his country and his pride. Even though he didn’t follow his heart, these kinds of decisions are often difficult when your family and everyone you know is counting on you.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of “On the Rainy River,” the narrator describes himself as a coward because even though he opposed the war in Vietnam he feared the shame of avoiding the draft more and goes to war anyways. I agree with his decision to war but not his reasoning to do so. He should have not have went over for fear of gossip and shame but for the ideals and freedoms of his country which he had benefited in his whole life. O'Brien tells us his story first because he wants us to understand his decision to justify himself. He describes to the reader about the difficult position he was in as a young person and makes us question whether or not it was the right decision since he himself was already unsure too. Elroy’s part in the story was making O’Brien reach a decision by taking him out on the river to confront either Canada and freedom on one side or the draft on the other. O’Brien reached his decision of going to war because he wants to avoid the disapproval of his hometown, which will make him feel guilty and ashamed to be the coward who ran and hid in canada instead of fighting for his country.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhen O’Brien calls himself a coward, it is in my opinion that he calls himself this because of his reasoning for not going to war. Fighting as a soldier to me is one of the bravest things an individual can do, so his feelings of cowardice comes from the reasons behind his lack of courage. Some of that came from the fact that he was fighting in a war that he was completely against; bloodshed and battle with unclear reasons and intentions. O’Brien admitted that he was not one cut out for the life of a soldier. He couldn’t stand blood, couldn’t tolerate authority, and didn’t know the first things about shooting a gun. He was afraid of looking weak and for that he calls himself a coward. Shame is never a thing that a person wants to own up to, and I believe that’s why he hasn’t shared this before. Elroy helped him stand up to these feelings by simply doing nothing at all, and giving him time to talk. I enjoyed this section of the book because he really showed his true feelings about the war and this way, I feel that the reader can really relate and read on a more personal level.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of "On the Rainy River," O'Brien calls himself a coward and says that he went to war. Although some may take this as being brave, to him, it is not. Tim wanted to live a mainstream life: go to college, have a job, make a family. Instead he would be drafted into a war he knew almost nothing about and did not understand. Tim calls himself a coward because the only reason he does so, is so that he will avoid embarrassment and harassment he believes he would retrieve if he escaped to Canada.
ReplyDeleteO'Brien has never told this story because of the fact that is is truly embarrassing for him. Tim believes he should fight for his country just like any other willing man but does not wish to because it is not the life for him. This also leads back to him being embarrassed of even denying war in the first place which is why this was the first time he ever told the story.
Elroy helps O'Brien discover the path he wants to go in multiple ways. In a less blunt way, Elroy acts as the audience that would watch Tim deny war. In a more literal way, Elroy allows O'Brien to have a chance at escape by offering him a quick route to the Canadian border. Shame, embarrassment, and masculinity play the biggest role in this decision solely because O'Brien believes this is what other men will and should do.
While reading this chapter, I found myself being able to relate to O'Brien extremely well. Personally I have always pondered signing up for the military because of the benefits it offered but came to the decision that the military and especially a war would not be for me. If I was drafted into a war I would be just as reluctant if not more than O'Brien.
O’Brien calls himself a coward for going into war at the end of On the Rainey River because he left his real plans of moving away to Canada to avoid the war. Although O’Brien calls himself a coward for not going through with his plans and staying in Canada, he has a lot of courage to enter the Vietnam War. O’Brien’s motives for entering the war were from all of his citizens back at home who he thought would criticize him for not entering the war like he was supposed to. Although He ran from his fears and calls himself a coward, O’Brien did not run to safety. O’Brien also faced his fears by entering the war. Although Elroy did play a role in O’Brien’s decision to go home, the decision making was mainly made up by O’Brien. Elroy just continued on his day to day lifestyle and acted as if he was okay with O’Brien’s fleeing to Canada. O’Brien eventually realized that although Elroy may seem accepting, others back at home would ridicule him and his family if he stayed in Canada. O’Brien would not be able to face the embarrassment of his fellow citizens back home which helped him make the decision to go to go to war. Overall, this was one of my favorite sections of the book because it showed the true fear that some soldiers must have had when being drafted for the war. I think O’Brien portrayed the feeling of what most people would feel if they tried to flee to Canada and avoid the war. This section taught me that not every soldier was completely ready to just pack up and enter a life-threatening war.
ReplyDeleteAs you read the book "The things they carried" you start to understand that O'Brien's life was consumed by fear. At first he feared the war and so he ran away to go to Canada. Then when he got the chance he feared his family and everyone else labeling him as an afraid man. I do not believe his statement at the end of the book declaring that he is a coward. In-fact i believe it takes courage just to admit to his faults. Also going into war alone takes courage and even if he was afraid at the beginning, still does not trump the fact he did end up going. O'brien has never told anyone this story because of sheer embarrassment i believe. Also the whole story with Elroy amazes me. The first time you read the section you believe that Elroy was the one who made the decision for him and that he is the one who made O'Brien go to the war but in reality it was all O'Brien himself. Elroy just knew that he needed time to think everything over. I believe that O'Brien's decision was based off of everything, embarrassment, masculinity, shame and fear. I think in the end he just felt that it was his duty and his responsibility to overcome his fear and fight for his country and the people he loves.
ReplyDeleteEven today most people conform to society's expectations. Back during the war the standards for all males when drafted was to go and fight for their country without hesitation. Not going would lead to dishonor, and embarrassment. When the narrator says “ I was a coward. I went to the war.” I partially agree with him. Half of me believes that a man who risks his life to fight for all of our freedoms could never be compared to a coward. Then I think of the deeper meaning of the quote. What he was really trying to say was Tim O’Brien was a coward for allowing the pressure of society sway his decision. O’Brien did not believe in the war and did not want to fight in it. He was afraid of what everyone would think of him if he ran away. I’m sure many of the soldiers thought this through. Tim O’Brien was a coward for the reasoning he went to war. Instead of going because he didn't want to face his family and the shame he could have thought of the reasons he should go. Fighting in this war meant fighting for our country. He should have been thinking ‘ I want to fight in this war to maintain the greatness of the United States’ not because there would have been disapproval otherwise.
ReplyDeleteThe weight of guilt on O’Brien’s shoulders were finally lifted when he told this story. He waited so long because it may have not pleased society. He finally realized that conforming to society was what made him a coward in the first place.
Elroy did not sway O’Brien’s decision , he only made it clear. Elroy wasn’t an influence. I thought of him as a person who allowed O’Brien to think about all of the possibilities. While on the boat Elroy takes him to where he can see the two different paths . One path is freedom from the draft. On this side of the river society dishonors his decision. His reputation would forever be shattered On the other side he is praised for being brave but has to risk his life where there is a great possibility of him dying. Society is too loud, therefore he too gets trapped into their conforming ways. He has no voice, society is his voice. His decision was based upon the thoughts of others and that is why he is a coward.
This section of the book caused me to become very frustrated because I can relate it todays world. Every day especially in high school people are following in all of societies footsteps because they are afraid of what others will think of them. My thoughts are if somebody thinks differently of you for not conforming then they were never really there for you in the first place. Today things like drugs and alcohol are pressured upon people because it is the “cool thing to do”. It irritates me seeing people around me conform to society as Tim O’Brien did.
When O’Brien said that he was a coward he thinks he is because he went the war. O’Brien couldn’t face the embarrassment and criticism from his neighbors and family back home if he were to flee to Canada. I don’t agree with him because he chose the courageous option, he went to the war and didn’t run away. O’Brien never told this story before because it shows how truly afraid he was of the war, and how he almost ran away. Elroy was a quiet old man who didn’t really influence Tim; he was a friend who would accept Tim’s choices. He gives him opportunities to think about his actions but doesn’t give his own opinion. O’Brien comes to his final decision because he thinks of every person from his hometown, of himself, of Abraham Lincoln. Tim thinks of anyone and everyone who could influence his decision, and in the end his humiliation and shame wouldn’t let him jump out of the boat. Those people he saw would have called him a traitor, they would have been embarrassed of him. Shame, embarrassment, and masculinity made the decision for O’Brien.
ReplyDeleteWhen O'Brien says "I was a coward, I went to war" he means that he was scared of his parents reactions, he was too scared to go to Canada he took the easy way out and went to war. I don't think he was a coward because I could never go to war myself I am too scared for combat. He never told this story before because he was too embarrassed by it. He is finally writing about it now in hope that it will relieve pressure off of his shoulders. Elroy was a old man who was understanding and didn't speak much. He knew O'Brien was going to leave so het set him up in a situation where he had a chance to leave and ultimately made O'Brien stay. O'Brien reaches his final decision by thinking about what people thought. He thought his family would be ashamed of him and humiliated if people knew he had dipped out on the war. O'Brien wanted to be a man so he went to war he wasn't going to be a coward and run and hide from the war. While reading this section I thought to myself "what would I do" and I honestly don't know. I feel that Tim was a man either way and was very brave. I feel like I would go to war out of fear of the government and there power. But for Tim to go all the way to the border than decide not to that took a lot of guts.
ReplyDeleteO'Brien called himself a coward because he went to war even though he didn't agree with that sort of violence. He knew it was expected of him to go and defend his country and he was afraid of the public shame he'd receive if he fled to Canada. I'm torn about his decision, as I think it was courageous of him to go to Vietnam, but he went for the completely wrong reason. He went to war not because he wanted to do his duty to his country, but because he was afraid of what others would think of him if he ran away.
ReplyDeleteElroy, the owner of the lodge O'Brien stayed at for six days, was just the right person O'Brien needed to make his decision. Elroy never pressured him to do what he believed to be the right thing, but he gave O'Brien the opportunity to come to his own conclusion by himself. O'Brien knew that Elroy would accept his decision no matter what, which was exactly the sort of comfort he needed to make his decision to go to the war.
I think that when O’Brien said “I was a coward. I went to the war.” he means that he didn’t have the courage to cross the border and go to Canada and abandon his country. He has never told this story before because he was ashamed of himself for even thinking about leaving the country and not going to war, and he felt like he should tell the story now as an example to others and to get the guilt ‘off of his chest’. Elroy Berdahl was crucial to O’Brien staying and going to the war. Although he didn’t speak much, and never gave his opinion on the war, he was someone who was there for O’Brien when he needed someone. One day, Elroy took O’Brien fishing on the Rainy River which separates Minnesota from Canada. While they were fishing, O’Brien was about to jump off the boat and swim to freedom in Canada, but he saw people from his past, present, and future yelling at him to stay and go to the war. He didn’t want to disappoint everyone from his life and that shame/embarrassment is what kept him in the United States. I think that O’Brien made a very bold move, that I don’t know if many people could make with freedom just meters away from you and choose to stay.
ReplyDeleteBy saying "I was a coward, I went to war" O'Brien was admitting his conformation to the expectations that others held of him. It's very true that it takes a brave man to enter the war yet I believe he was a coward in doing so. I believe that he should have followed his heart and done what he truly thought was the right thing to do. It was cowardly of him to let the judgmental views of others control his life. O'Brien never told this story until now because he was embarrassed not only by his want to run from the war but by the cowardliness he showed through his fear of what others thought. O'Brien stayed at a lodge owned by Elroy for six days. Elroy was very comforting and willing to support O'Brien no matter what his choice. For these reasons it is clear that Elroy didn't influence his choice, he only helped finalize the choice that O'Brien made on his own. O'Brien was a coward when he made the choice to conform to society in that final moment on the boat.
ReplyDeleteI thought the same way that Nathan above me thought when he was standing on the boat looking at Canada next to Elroy and starts to cry it occurred to me that either way he was going to be a coward. If we ran away the towns people would think of him as a coward, but if he didn't he would be afraid of the towns peoples shame so he would be a coward. If i was him i would have ran to Canada if only to avoid having to kill people. I feel that its not cowardly to run from something like war because its a serious thing that involves murder and death. And is not something to be taken lightly. I think that Elroy understood this and maybe even wanted him to run from the war because it didn't seem like Elroy expected him to cry on the boat. I wonder if that was a true story or a made up one because Elroy's reactions seemed exactly what the author needed to make himself go to war.
ReplyDelete“I was a coward. I went to the war.” I think that by this quote, O’Brien is calling himself a coward because he didn’t give in to what he really wanted to do which was to hide from the draft. However, I do not agree with O’Brien calling himself a coward because he would’ve definitely been more of a coward if he kept trying to escape the draft. O’Brien claims to have never told the story because he was embarrassed by it. He tells the story anyway because he hoped that it would help relieve some of the pressure on his dreams. Forgetting about his life as a declogger, O’Brien finds his way to the Tip Top Lodge which is just a swimming distance to Canada, away from the draft. Elroy was a skinny, bald, eighty-one year old man who owned the Tip Top Lodge. Elroy did not influence any life more than another; he just showed O’Brien his different choices and he did so by boating him out in the river so he could see both Minnesota and Canada. He reaches his decision through imaginary figures on either side of the lake. The figures either cheered for Canada or Minnesota. He began to sob quietly. Embarrassment played a role in his decision. Even though the figures were in his imagination, O’Brien still couldn’t handle the stares and the mockery. His masculinity also had a role. He felt that running away from something was not the manly thing to do. When he came to his conclusion, he threw his masculinity and pride out the window and began to cry louder.
ReplyDeleteThe quote "I was a coward. I went to the war." means to me that O'Brien didn't really want to be a coward and weasel his way out of the draft. The reason he never wanted to tell the story was because he wasn't comfortable with it, he was embarrassed. Telling stories or expressing your feelings can really help simmer down any embarrassment. Elroy is an old guy at 81 years, he was skinny and bald, he owned the Tip Top Lodge! Elroy didn't have a big impact on many people. But what he did do was boat O'Brien to see Canada and Minnesota. Figures of O'Brien's imagination were staring at him and mocking him. This is where the embarrassment set in. He ends up breaking down all the way and starts to bawl. - Riley Heuker -
ReplyDeletewhen Tim O'Brian said "I was a coward. I went to the war." which was basically explaining that he had a second thought on fleeing to canada and decided to go to the war. To explain his quote, he was cowardly because he did not want people to think of him as a wimp or a baby for running away. O'Brian could not overcome the fact that people were going to think of him that way. Ironically He is not a coward at all for going to the war. It was actually the least cowardly thing to do.
ReplyDeleteWhen O’Brien made the statement that he was a coward and he went to war he meant that he couldn’t stand up to society in the sense of judgment. He was so afraid of what people would say about him that he went against his better judgment to fight for something he had no place fighting for. He did not believe in the decisions our country was making toward Vietnam. He probably decided to wait and tell the story because he had to sort through his emotions in order to actually write the novel. I believe that his motive for writing this was to let people know about the struggles of committing to war. You are not only becoming a part of a large army, but also individually making a promise to stand up for your country.
ReplyDeleteElroy helped Tim in many ways. I don’t necessary think he influenced him, but I think he was valuable in a sense of just being there while O’Brien was sorting through his emotions. Despite taking the week to figure things out, O’Brien cracked under the pressure and let society’s opinion crush his own.
By saying this, the narrator implies that he was a coward for not having enough guts to jump out of Elroy’s boat and head for Canadian territory rather than being a coward for NOT going to war and running from his problems. O’Brien has never told this story before because he was too embarrassed to and he didn’t want anyone to know how much of a coward that he thought himself to be. Elroy was a reserved yet generous old man that O’Brien was fortunate enough to stumble upon. Elroy scared O’Brien into making his final decision to go to war by facing him with the harsh reality of what the wrong decision could mean. Embarrassment is the main reason that O’Brien went to war because he was hung up on what others would think of him if he had taken that leap from Elroy’s boat.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteO'Brien believed himself a coward for submitting and going off to war. Most people would consider running away from fighting cowardly. To O'Brien however, the shame of running and being an outcast in his own country outweighed the fear of fighting in a war he did not believe in. O'Brien has never told this story before due to the embarrassment that goes along with it. Elroy was a generous old man that gave O'Brien time to think about his decision to run. It was Elroy however, that ultimately forced O'Brien to choose when he took him fishing on the Canadian border. The main reason O'Brien went to war is because he was embarrassed not to.
ReplyDelete